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xrd 8 hours ago [-]
What is the hedge for this? Digging a really deep hole somewhere?
JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago [-]
> What is the hedge for this?
Cash. So you can buy into the dip. It’s historically a losing position, however.
lumost 7 hours ago [-]
Hedging against currency collapse is notoriously difficult. But a reasonable set of hedges are assets that will have value regardless of currency changeovers. Eg housing, land, gold etc.
xrd 5 hours ago [-]
I just assume the USA will be the place where violent "repurposing" of land will happen because of all the guns here. Housing seems risky for that reason.
fakedang 6 hours ago [-]
Anything that has steady value - land, gold, real estate with global appeal, manufacturing for the global market, etc.
zamalek 8 hours ago [-]
An yet people will die on the hill of "republican economics." I truly can't understand it.
kgwxd 5 hours ago [-]
You'd have to not understand anything, to understand it. "Qualified" people are the most unqualified, and "unqualified" people are geniuses. Just believe what the "unqualified" people say, and you can be a genius too.
Horatius77 7 hours ago [-]
Sad part is that, you can basically pick any random date over the past 50 years and this headline would ring true at that time. Our debt always seems to be at an all time high.
moregrist 5 hours ago [-]
That’s just not true. At the end of the 90s the US had a budget surplus and there was a discussion of how we were going to handle it.
Then George W. Bush enacted a big tax cut in 2001 that no one remembers because it was heavily weighted toward the top 1%. Suddenly we didn’t have a surplus problem anymore.
bguebert 3 hours ago [-]
There might have been a budget surplus but we were still in debt.
Here they show the debt increasing through the 90s but by less than most other decades. I don't know if it takes into account inflation though so maybe that would have made the debt have less value. Seems like they didn't use any of the surplus to pay off the debt.
SideQuark 5 hours ago [-]
The surplus had dried up before Bush’s election, as the dot com bust tanked federal tax revenues.
Bush tax cuts did add to the deficit though.
anon7000 6 hours ago [-]
I mean, that’s how growth works. Like, if the economy normally grows, the economy is always the biggest it’s ever been. Debt’s always the highest. Human population is always the largest. Number of companies is always increasing. Amount of important economic infrastructure financed by debt is ever growing.
To be fair, I’m not saying our debt is in a good place. But just that we should expect it to always be the most it’s ever been, just like we’d always expect the economy to be the largest it’s ever been.
By itself, it doesn’t mean anything if it’s always increasing, what matters more is how quickly debt is growing and if we aren’t keeping up in how we pay it off
seanhunter 2 hours ago [-]
> Debt’s always the highest.
You don’t need to fund growth with debt necessarily- look at Norway for example. They have modest gdp growth and a net asset position. (And yes I know it’s because of their mineral wealth I’m just saying that growth doesn’t necessarily entail growing debt).
As an American, I hear "8 trillion dollars in debt" and it seems like monopoly money.
Nobody lets you borrow 8 trillion dollars without paying some of it back.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a made-up number, it's only gotten bigger every moment I've been alive, and nothing ever comes of it.
When the universe dies, the US national debt will be at one gajillion...
blitzar 9 hours ago [-]
Actually bill clinton paid some of it back (and created 22 million new jobs and an internship).
also the us debt is 38 trillion
pinkmuffinere 4 hours ago [-]
> (and created 22 million new jobs and an internship)
I appreciate the humor you hid in this aside.
gavinray 9 hours ago [-]
> also the us debt is 38 trillion
It's sort of like being given one fine that's $100, and one fine that's $250 billion.
You may as well keep increasing the number of second fine, because in no earthly circumstance will I ever be able to pay it back.
coldtea 8 hours ago [-]
>You may as well keep increasing the number of second fine, because in no earthly circumstance will I ever be able to pay it back.
When that's the case, you'd be surprised what happens when the breaking point comes.
Or do you think countries haven't gone bankrupt before?
lithocarpus 6 hours ago [-]
mmm..
A better analogy would be this:
You have $100k income, and $800k debt, on which you have to pay ~$40,000 interest every year. That takes up a good chunk of your income. But if the debt doubled, at the same interest rate, you could really be in trouble.
darth_avocado 6 hours ago [-]
If I pay $40K interest every year on my $100K salary, I’m in trouble. If I owe $80K in interest every year on my $100K salary, the bank is in trouble.
moi2388 45 minutes ago [-]
Not if your income was partly “getting loans from the bank” and now the bank won’t lend you money anymore, which is more in line with what the debt means for the us.
hyperhello 4 hours ago [-]
Or are they, really?
fakedang 6 hours ago [-]
> because in no earthly circumstance will I ever be able to pay it back.
Well at that point, all hell breaks loose - that's the Weimar story all over again.
The minute the US isn't able to project power globally, and the minute the Gulf states shift even a single transaction away from the petrodollar, the USD is finished. At that point, it might not make sense for them to accept the USD or dollar-denominated debt, either because of constant devaluation or the pointlessness of holding onto US Treasuries (because the US won't pay its debt). No one would buy US debt as a safe haven any more, which means the US won't be able to fund its budget.
darth_avocado 6 hours ago [-]
You’re missing the magic sauce: every other government is also equally fiscally irresponsible.
rationalist 9 hours ago [-]
also the U.S. unfunded liabilities is over 100 trillion*
* That was the number that I first heard, but a quick search shows it's estimated anywhere from 80 trillion to 210 trillion dollars.
quickthrowman 8 hours ago [-]
Clinton didn’t do much of anything to pay down the total amount of outstanding debt, but he (and Congress!) did have positive effects by balancing the government’s budget. Outstanding US government debt chart from FRED: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEBTN
The budget was balanced and/or a surplus for the years from 1997-2001, which meant a lot less money was borrowed (or fewer bonds were sold, depending on how you want to look at it.)
The percentage of public debt to GDP also fell substantially from 1993-2000, which is a better metric than gross debt levels anyways. Here’s a chart of that from FRED: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S
liveoneggs 7 hours ago [-]
it means we gave $8T to someone and slowly pay it.
The US government does spent a pretty large amount of its budget paying some of the debt back. More now that there's been multiple brinkmanship games of threatening a default for political points.
rationalist 9 hours ago [-]
The interest on the debt alone, is 1 trillion dollars a year.
rcxdude 9 hours ago [-]
And that's at basically the lowest interest you can possibly get a loan.
rationalist 9 hours ago [-]
The U.S. GDP is about 31 trillion, so 3 percent of that isn't bad, as long as we can continue to grow more than that, forever.
Although according the the article, the interest payments account for one fifth of revenue, projected to be one quarter in ten years.
coldtea 8 hours ago [-]
>as long as we can continue to grow more than that, forever.
"Being chased while on foot by a pack of hungry cheetahs is not that bad, as long as we can keep our distance"
kelseyfrog 7 hours ago [-]
You also have to understand that the foundation of money is debt in the sense that if we paid back all the debt, money wouldn't continue to exist. The sum total of debt exceeds the total quantity of money.
izacus 8 hours ago [-]
The core of the issue is that the new debt isn't taken at low 3% interest right? So the servicing costs are rising faster than the economy is growing.
blitzar 8 hours ago [-]
paying off one credit card with another credit card doesnt really pass the threshold of "paying some of the debt back"
Cash. So you can buy into the dip. It’s historically a losing position, however.
Then George W. Bush enacted a big tax cut in 2001 that no one remembers because it was heavily weighted toward the top 1%. Suddenly we didn’t have a surplus problem anymore.
https://www.investopedia.com/us-national-debt-by-year-749929...
Here they show the debt increasing through the 90s but by less than most other decades. I don't know if it takes into account inflation though so maybe that would have made the debt have less value. Seems like they didn't use any of the surplus to pay off the debt.
Bush tax cuts did add to the deficit though.
To be fair, I’m not saying our debt is in a good place. But just that we should expect it to always be the most it’s ever been, just like we’d always expect the economy to be the largest it’s ever been.
By itself, it doesn’t mean anything if it’s always increasing, what matters more is how quickly debt is growing and if we aren’t keeping up in how we pay it off
You don’t need to fund growth with debt necessarily- look at Norway for example. They have modest gdp growth and a net asset position. (And yes I know it’s because of their mineral wealth I’m just saying that growth doesn’t necessarily entail growing debt).
Nobody lets you borrow 8 trillion dollars without paying some of it back.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a made-up number, it's only gotten bigger every moment I've been alive, and nothing ever comes of it.
When the universe dies, the US national debt will be at one gajillion...
also the us debt is 38 trillion
I appreciate the humor you hid in this aside.
You may as well keep increasing the number of second fine, because in no earthly circumstance will I ever be able to pay it back.
When that's the case, you'd be surprised what happens when the breaking point comes.
Or do you think countries haven't gone bankrupt before?
A better analogy would be this:
You have $100k income, and $800k debt, on which you have to pay ~$40,000 interest every year. That takes up a good chunk of your income. But if the debt doubled, at the same interest rate, you could really be in trouble.
Well at that point, all hell breaks loose - that's the Weimar story all over again.
The minute the US isn't able to project power globally, and the minute the Gulf states shift even a single transaction away from the petrodollar, the USD is finished. At that point, it might not make sense for them to accept the USD or dollar-denominated debt, either because of constant devaluation or the pointlessness of holding onto US Treasuries (because the US won't pay its debt). No one would buy US debt as a safe haven any more, which means the US won't be able to fund its budget.
* That was the number that I first heard, but a quick search shows it's estimated anywhere from 80 trillion to 210 trillion dollars.
The budget was balanced and/or a surplus for the years from 1997-2001, which meant a lot less money was borrowed (or fewer bonds were sold, depending on how you want to look at it.)
The percentage of public debt to GDP also fell substantially from 1993-2000, which is a better metric than gross debt levels anyways. Here’s a chart of that from FRED: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLQlOK3AWSs
Federal Outlays: Interest as Percent of Gross Domestic Product (FYOIGDA188S) https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYOIGDA188S
Although according the the article, the interest payments account for one fifth of revenue, projected to be one quarter in ten years.
"Being chased while on foot by a pack of hungry cheetahs is not that bad, as long as we can keep our distance"